I must say I find this whole discussion
very interesting. To stumble across this two years later is eye
opening and I can only imagine what other archives are out there.
It is to be sure an absolute human trait that some will always expect
the worst in people or just cause trouble to cause trouble. For
the most part everyone posts very good analysis jere and its worth a
full read. Ideas create the world. As as I continue to
profit from the Never Was page (yeah right...LOL) to my own ends
(ahem...yes saracasm), I know somewhere out there the majority of you
actually get it. Now onto the archive:
<><><><><><><><><><><><><<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<>><><><><><><><><><>
From: Zathrus (Izathrus@attbi.com)
Subject: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-17 18:30:22 PST
Any comments on this site?
http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
Zathrus asked:
<<Any comments on this site?>>
Sure. Why worry about might-have-beens?
JMS has said that the story that got told was at least (quoting from memory
here) 85-90% of the story he started out to tell. I doubt that there are many
other TV producers who can say as much.
One of the amazing things about the B5 story is that Joe was able to write
around things like actors leaving and breaking bones and needing time off for
other projects and still tell his story.
In some ways, it may have even made for a better story. Case in point is the
episode where Claudia Christian broke her foot. JMS has said that he'd
originally planned for Ivanova to get out of the predicament by herself.
Instead, he had to write where Garibaldi is instrumental in her rescue.
Personally, I thought that that episode made Garibaldi much more 'real' to me.
Another was when Stephen Furst needed time off for another project. This
served to illustrate Londo's isolation which made him an even more tragic
figure.
Yes, I think that it would have been interesting to see the Sinclair character
evolve more onscreen. That's balanced out by my opinion that Lyta was a more
effective character than Talia. Either way, I appreciate the story that did
happen and can't worry too much over what might have been.
Jan
well, you did ask....:-)
jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
> Zathrus asked:
>
> <<Any comments on this site?>>
>
> Sure. Why worry about might-have-beens?
>
> JMS has said that the story that got told was at least (quoting from memory
> here) 85-90% of the story he started out to tell. I doubt that there are many
> other TV producers who can say as much.
>
> One of the amazing things about the B5 story is that Joe was able to write
> around things like actors leaving and breaking bones and needing time off for
> other projects and still tell his story.
>
> In some ways, it may have even made for a better story. Case in point is the
> episode where Claudia Christian broke her foot. JMS has said that he'd
> originally planned for Ivanova to get out of the predicament by herself.
> Instead, he had to write where Garibaldi is instrumental in her rescue.
> Personally, I thought that that episode made Garibaldi much more 'real' to me.
> Another was when Stephen Furst needed time off for another project. This
> served to illustrate Londo's isolation which made him an even more tragic
> figure.
>
> Yes, I think that it would have been interesting to see the Sinclair character
> evolve more onscreen. That's balanced out by my opinion that Lyta was a more
> effective character than Talia. Either way, I appreciate the story that did
> happen and can't worry too much over what might have been.
>
That being said, I think it would have been interesting if a couple of
story arcs had played out with the original characters. It would have
been very effective to deal dramatically with the disappearance of
Catherine Sakai, rather than have Sheridan show up with his wife's
disappearance already a _fait accompli_.
Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for Ivanova
and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would have
had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of Ivanova
involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
romantic involvement.
Again, I loved B5 the way it turned out. "Might have beens" aren't
very productive, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun.
"Paul McElligott" <mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>... <snip>
> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for Ivanova
> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would have
> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of Ivanova
> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
> romantic involvement.
>
Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
<<<Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.>>>
There was certainly a suggestion of such.
1--The scene where Talia spends the night w/ Susan and wakes up in her bed.
2--Talia's (the "bad" Talia's) mockery of Susan, which implies that she used
Susan's love to get secrets out of her or generally to get closer to the
command staff.
3--Then there's the more explicit "I think I loved Talia," the "thing you've
never told anyone" which Susan shares w/ Delenn.
They aren't girlfriends, but there's certainly some sexual tension there,
and they do share a bed at least once. Maybe they were simply "bed friends"
but even that's a little more than "just friends." It's a sort of first
step to becoming lovers, in my book.
Of course, Talia's bad personality was "outed" by Lyta directly afterwards,
so we never saw what might happen.
Jenn
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote:
>[Talia and Ivanova] aren't girlfriends, but there's certainly
>some sexual tension there, and they do share a bed at least
>once. Maybe they were simply "bed friends" but even that's a
>little more than "just friends." It's a sort of first step to
>becoming lovers, in my book.
Usually, depending on the circumstances. But in this particular case,
it seems fairly clear that there's some kind of romantic/sexual
involvement between Talia and Ivanova. Being "bed friends", i.e.
starting with cuddling in bed together without having sex, is IMO a
really nice way to start a relationship (using "relationship" in the
loose sense, i.e. any romantic relationship, not necessarily a primary
one). It seems rather difficult to arrange things that way, though.
IME it's harder to be "bed friends" first with a different-sex partner
than it is for two men, and I'd guess that it would also be easier for
two women than for a man and a woman. This probably just reflects how
society is at the moment, at least largely.
Matthew
[large para. about "bed/friends" and sexual relations]
>>>>This probably just reflects how
society is at the moment, at least largely.>>>
Matthew, you've hit on a great problem. In the B5 timeframe, presumably,
some social mores have changed (think about the difference between 20th
century and 18th century people!). Along with the change in customs, the
ways of "signaling" behavior/intent/etc have probably also changed. But to
"show" the story, the author has to use "signals" that people here-and-now
will recognize. A real challenge for the storyteller.
Assume, hypothetically, that in B5 time, it's common for same-sex friends to
share a bed (without sex) to express the warmth-extent of their friendship.
Then, you want to give just a "hint" that Talia/Susan have become such close
friends that they decide to share a bed? How do you do that?
1--show a brief bedscene (like the one in the ep) and risk the viewers
thinking "sex"!!
OR
2--introduce a lot of narrative explanation for the new custom
Neither is ideal.
If you want to assume a LOT of cultural drift, then the more burdensome
discussion you have to introduce, and the less freely you can
"suggest"things by a glance, a facial expression, an empty bed, etc etc etc.
Because the viewers won't know what's being "suggested."
Think how much narration there is to "explain" teep
culture/customs/relations with the rest of society. We have to be told
about the gloves, about their rules, about sex for teeps, etc. JMS does it
well, but it means that he can't just "hint" at nuances of teep behavior
very well.
So unless we got background explanations (which we didn't) I guess we should
assume that sex relations and courtship rituals are about the same in B5
time and now.
Jenn
In message <af2fcj$17na@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, "Raven Woman"
<HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote on Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:38:17 -0400:
[...]
>
> If you want to assume a LOT of cultural drift,
[...]
...which is a bad idea in any *good* SF. Anything that is different
from our current society, technologically, culturally or whatever,
should be explicitly expounded. Thems the rules, like in detective
fiction, where all the clues available to the sleuth have to be
available to the reader/watcher. Otherwise, you can end up using
technobabble to get out of impossible situations.
All fiction is to some extent a comment on humanity as it is now, so
no author wants to change too much.
--
Richard Tibbetts
http://www.primepeace.ltd.uk/
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Matthew, you've hit on a great problem. In the B5 timeframe,
>presumably, some social mores have changed (think about the
>difference between 20th century and 18th century people!). Along
>with the change in customs, the ways of "signaling"
>behavior/intent/etc have probably also changed. But to "show"
>the story, the author has to use "signals" that people here-and-now
>will recognize. A real challenge for the storyteller.
>
>Assume, hypothetically, that in B5 time, it's common for
>same-sex friends to share a bed (without sex) to express
>the warmth-extent of their friendship.
That might be a nice idea for different-sex friendships also. Of
course, in either the same-sex or different-sex case, it would only
apply to situations where both persons were comfortable with it. So,
there'd be some friendships where it didn't apply; it'd probably only
apply to fairly close friendships, for a start. I guess that it would
be a good middle ground in between platonic friendship and sexual
involvement, which does seem like somewhat of a false dichotomy.
<snip>
>So unless we got background explanations (which we didn't) I
>guess we should assume that sex relations and courtship rituals
>are about the same in B5 time and now.
I agree entirely. However, I wasn't actually talking about this, and I
think you've misinterpreted what I was saying. I apologise for my part
in the misunderstanding if the way I structured my post was ambiguous.
I wasn't even talking about Talia and Ivanova, or B5, for most of my
last post; other than the first two sentences, nothing I said in my
last post had anything at all to do with B5. Rather, I was talking
about dating issues IRL. The reason I made the "This probably just
reflects how society is at the moment, at least largely" comment was
that I was saying that it could be changed.
My point is that, with the way society is at the moment, often it's
hard (especially so with a different-sex partner) to take the physical
side slowly when you're dating. The idea of just being "bed friends"
for a while first is very appealing (for me, anyway), but often hard
to achieve in practice. I think it's easiest for two women, because if
one of them said she wanted to wait a while before having sex, it
would probably be better understood. OTOH if a *man* says he wants to
wait a while before having sex, it sounds unrealistic due to
stereotypes about gender roles. Men are generally expected to always
want sex and not to have any emotional needs to take things slowly;
it's a bit like how men aren't supposed to cry, and all that.
Read the rest of this message... (27 more lines)
> >So unless we got background explanations (which we didn't) I
> >guess we should assume that sex relations and courtship rituals
> >are about the same in B5 time and now.
>
> I agree entirely. However, I wasn't actually talking about this, and I
> think you've misinterpreted what I was saying. I apologise for my part
> in the misunderstanding if the way I structured my post was ambiguous.
snip snip
>
> Am I making sense here?
>
> Matthew
No, I probably wasn't following. I'm more interested in issues of
storytelling than dating, so I must'a just picked out what I wanted to see.
At any rate, the original poster was protesting that Ivanova/Talia didn't
have a relationship, and I was arguing why we have to interpret "evidence"
as parsimoniously as possible--ie. assume an empty bed means what an empty
bed means now, narratively speaking. Unless other customs have been
introduced.
Sorry--
Jenn
From: Matthew Vincent (warlock@es.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-07-01 22:38:04 PST
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I'm more interested in issues of storytelling than dating, so
>I must'a just picked out what I wanted to see.
*nods* yeah, that's understandable. I'm kinda the other way around, I
think, in that I'm far more interested in the social issues that B5
makes reference to than I am in B5 itself. If it was just a Sci-Fi
show to me, there's no way I'd be spending all this time posting here.
>At any rate, the original poster was protesting that Ivanova/Talia
>didn't have a relationship, and I was arguing why we have to
>interpret "evidence" as parsimoniously as possible--ie. assume an
>empty bed means what an empty bed means now, narratively speaking.
I agree entirely. It seemed so obvious to me that Ivanova & Talia
*were* romantically involved, that I figured I'd go on to discuss
something different since that issue had (IMO) already been sorted.
Btw, in response to someone else's comments in the thread regarding
Talia's feelings for Ivanova, I'd imagine that the sleeper personality
couldn't invent romantic feelings altogether. Rather, Talia already
had romantic feelings for Ivanova prior to the sleeper personality
playing on them.
>Sorry--
>Jenn
It's alright. It is easy to misunderstand people on the net, when all
we have to go by is verbal communication.
Matthew
CaptJosh <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
: "Paul McElligott" <mcelligott6@cox.net>
wrote in message news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
:> involved with Byron, with Talia as his
loyal "disciple" would have
:> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
:> romantic involvement.
:>
: Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no : romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
JMS says otherwise. Watch it again. ;-)
Claudia
-- "here's a random factoid that probably isn't
actually of interest to anyone but me, but it's connected to this post
somehow, like a brain fart off a brainstorming tree. whoops, that was
too much buildup, because it isn't actually all that interesting. now i
can't say it." -- Susannah Mandel
In message <aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de>, "CaptJosh"
<captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote on Wed, 19 Jun 2002
12:57:48
-0700:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
> > jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in
message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
> > Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned
for Ivanova
> > and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he
would have
> > had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of
Ivanova
> > involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would
have
> > taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
previous
> > romantic involvement.
> >
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
Certainly not my interpretation that they "were merely friends",
though as it was implied rather than explicit, YMMV.
-- Richard Tibbetts
http://www.primepeace.ltd.uk/
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:57:48 -0700, "CaptJosh"
<captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
>Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no >romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command staff tells Delenn a secret
as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she loved
Talia.
CL
>
>Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command staff tells Delenn a secret
>as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she
loved
>Talia.
>
Ivonava says "I think" she did, in which case it was always my
assumption that
it was never brought to fruition. An asymptotic relationship (always
approaching, never arriving...)
WRW
In article <20020620225502.02625.00000100@mb-mp.aol.com>,
WRWhite963 wrote:
>>Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command
staff tells Delenn a secret
>>as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she
loved
>>Talia.
> > Ivonava says "I think" she did, in
which case it was always my assumption that
> it was never brought to fruition. An asymptotic relationship
(always
> approaching, never arriving...)
That's a strange way of seeing it. Does having sex with someone you
think you might love constitute proof of that love? I don't think so.
Sex doesn't equal love, or vice versa. (Or maybe I misunderstood your
meaning?)
In other words, Ivanova's "I think" isn't revealing in this regard, one
way or the other. I think they had sex--at the very least they slept
together ("slept together" as in "lay asleep in the same bed"), as
indicated by Talia's reaching out in her sleep to Susan--and then being
surprised when she sees the latter isn't there.
They had a good thing going, and then Psi-Corps had to go and ruin it
(by messing with Talia in the past). Figures. I also think it's a pity
the relationship wasn't allowed to go that far before the very episode
Talia was written out of the series. It's great that it got into the
series at all, but the fact it wasn't fleshed out (no pun intended)
more fully makes it seem far less daring in retrospect.
And it's sad that a wholesome gay relationship is STILL considered
something too daring and gutsy for televised science fiction. Why is it
that series set in the future, series supposedly futuristic, are
consistently the most conservative series on TV at any given time?
Technologically progressive, morally conservative--that goes for the
new Treks, and even applies to the various series set in the B5
universe, although to a SLIGHTLY lesser extent.
It's a universe of boy/girl - man/woman couples, if you go by televised
science fiction. And on this score, I certainly don't (go by them, that
is).
-Simo Sakari Aaltonen-
(simoaalt@cc.jyu.fi)
Simo Aaltonen wrote:
> In article
<20020620225502.02625.00000100@mb-mp.aol.com>, WRWhite963 wrote:
>
>>>Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the
command staff tells Delenn a secret
>>>as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that
she loved
>>>Talia.
>>>
>>Ivonava says "I think" she did, in which
case it was always my assumption that
>>it was never brought to fruition. An asymptotic relationship
(always
>>approaching, never arriving...)
>>
> > That's a strange way of seeing it. Does
having sex with someone you > think you might love constitute proof
of that love? I don't think so. > Sex doesn't equal love, or vice
versa. (Or maybe I misunderstood your > meaning?)
> > In other words, Ivanova's "I think" isn't revealing in this
regard, one > way or the other. I think they had sex--at the very
least they slept > together ("slept together" as in "lay asleep in
the same bed"), as > indicated by Talia's reaching out in her sleep
to Susan--and then > being surprised when she sees the latter isn't
there.
> > They had a good thing going, and then Psi-Corps had to go and
ruin it > (by messing with Talia in the past). Figures. I also think
it's a pity > the relationship wasn't allowed to go that far before
the very episode > Talia was written out of the series. It's great
that it got into the > series at all, but the fact it wasn't fleshed
out (no pun intended) more > fully makes it seem far less daring in
retrospect.
> > And it's sad that a wholesome gay relationship is STILL
considered > something too daring and gutsy for televised science
fiction. Why is it > that series set in the future, series
supposedly futuristic, are > consistently the most conservative
series on TV at any given time? > Technologically progressive,
morally conservative--that goes for the new > Treks, and even
applies to the various series set in the B5 universe, > although to
a SLIGHTLY lesser extent.
> > It's a universe of boy/girl - man/woman couples, if you go by
televised > science fiction. And on this score, I certainly don't
(go by them, > that is).
> > -Simo Sakari Aaltonen-
> (simoaalt@cc.jyu.fi)
> >
Don't forget that when Marcus and Franklin go to Mars, they are
travelling under the guise of newlyweds on their honeymoon, and nobody
bats an eye about it. I thought THAT was very telling... When gay
marriage is so normal that no one comments on it...
(and I always LOVED the way Marcus played on it. It cracks me up every
time)
-Wendy of NJ
"Chibi-Light" <erythrite@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d112d04.2935891@news.earthlink.net...
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:57:48 -0700,
"CaptJosh"
> <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
> >
> >Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't
you sharing? There was no > >romance between Talia and Ivanova.
They were merely friends.
> > Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command
staff tells Delenn a secret
> as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she
loved
> Talia.
>
This is worse than the K/Sers in Star Trek fandom. Love isn't
necessarily romantic in nature!
According to CaptJosh <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com>:
> This is worse than the K/Sers in Star Trek
fandom.
You have GOT to be kidding. No it's not.
-- Bitwise, Andrew. &
"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in message
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de...
"Paul McElligott" <mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message
news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message
news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc
that JMS had planned for Ivanova
>> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he
would have
>> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of
Ivanova
>> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would
have
>> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
previous
>> romantic involvement.
>
>Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
>romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
You're joking, right? When were they friends? They fought each other
all
the time and then had a sleepover.
Jim
From: Kerry Casey (kcasey@bom.gov.au)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-20 21:28:57 PST
>"James Bell" <jamesb@naxs.com> wrote:
> >"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
> >>"Paul McElligott" <mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote:
> > >>jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote: <snip>
> >> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for Ivanova
> >> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would have
> >> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of Ivanova
> >> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
> >> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
> >> romantic involvement.
> >
> >Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
> >romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
>
> You're joking, right? When were they friends? They fought each other all
> the time and then had a sleepover.
>
>
The first time through, I never saw the "tension" between Talia and
Susan as anything other than friends. It's not until I read the
newsgroup that I realised that there was an understated attraction
between them. However, when showing B5 to a cousin who'd never seen it
and knew nothing of it, after the first few scenes between Susan and
Talia, she said "Hah, lesbian love interest!"
Kerry
--
Kerry Casey
kcasey@bom.gov.au
From: Ryan Pearman (rpearman@chem.columbia.edu)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-21 17:56:25 PST
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
> romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
Yikes.... unlike that bed scene just before Talia goes Postal, or Ivanova's
confession to Delenn......
--Ryan
Paul McElligott wrote:
> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
>
>>Zathrus asked:
>>
>><<Any comments on this site?>>
>>
>>Sure. Why worry about might-have-beens?
>>
>>JMS has said that the story that got told was at least (quoting
from memory
>>here) 85-90% of the story he started out to tell. I doubt that
there are many
>>other TV producers who can say as much.
>>
>>One of the amazing things about the B5 story is that Joe was
able to write
>>around things like actors leaving and breaking bones and
needing time off for
>>other projects and still tell his story. >>
>>In some ways, it may have even made for a better story. Case in
point is the
>>episode where Claudia Christian broke her foot. JMS has said
that he'd
>>originally planned for Ivanova to get out of the predicament by
herself. >>Instead, he had to write where Garibaldi is
instrumental in her rescue. >>Personally, I thought that that
episode made Garibaldi much more 'real' to me. >>Another was when
Stephen Furst needed time off for another project. This
>>served to illustrate Londo's isolation which made him an even
more tragic
>>figure.
>>
>>Yes, I think that it would have been interesting to see the
Sinclair character
>>evolve more onscreen. That's balanced out by my opinion that
Lyta was a more
>>effective character than Talia. Either way, I appreciate the
story that did
>>happen and can't worry too much over what might have been.
>>
>>
> > That being said, I think it would have
been interesting if a couple of
> story arcs had played out with the original characters. It would
have
> been very effective to deal dramatically with the disappearance of
> Catherine Sakai, rather than have Sheridan show up with his wife's
> disappearance already a _fait accompli_.
> > Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned
for Ivanova
> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would
have
> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of
Ivanova
> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
> romantic involvement.
IIRC, didn't JMS say that Ivanova was going to be Byron's squeeze if
she was still in S5?
> > Again, I loved B5 the way it turned
out. "Might have beens" aren't
> very productive, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun.
> >
(and I still enjoy teasing my brother in law, who's named John
Sheridan, and telling people to spell my last name "like the Captain on
Babylon 5, *not* the hotel chain" <G>)
-Wendy of NJ
Having read through the rest of the thread, I had to come back and
reply to
this one with 100% agreement. I'm sure there are plenty of other
mighta-beens and shoulda-beens that idle speculation could produce, and
plenty of other stuff Joe would have like to have done, or done
differently,
that isn't quite so "obvious".
As it is, we got an incredible five years, one that its creator is
satisfied
with. What more needs to be said?
"Jan" <jbonetati@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com...
> Zathrus asked:
>
> <<Any comments on this site?>>
>
> Sure. Why worry about might-have-beens?
>
> JMS has said that the story that got told was at least (quoting
from memory
> here) 85-90% of the story he started out to tell. I doubt that
there are many
> other TV producers who can say as much.
>
> One of the amazing things about the B5 story is that Joe was able
to write
> around things like actors leaving and breaking bones and needing
time off for
> other projects and still tell his story.
>
> In some ways, it may have even made for a better story. Case in
point is the
> episode where Claudia Christian broke her foot. JMS has said that
he'd
> originally planned for Ivanova to get out of the predicament by
herself.
> Instead, he had to write where Garibaldi is instrumental in her
rescue.
> Personally, I thought that that episode made Garibaldi much more
'real' to me.
> Another was when Stephen Furst needed time off for another
project. This
> served to illustrate Londo's isolation which made him an even more
tragic
> figure.
>
> Yes, I think that it would have been interesting to see the
Sinclair character
> evolve more onscreen. That's balanced out by my opinion that Lyta
was a more
> effective character than Talia. Either way, I appreciate the story
that did
> happen and can't worry too much over what might have been.
>
> Jan
> well, you did ask....:-)
>
"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
>> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in
message
>> news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for
>> Ivanova and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same
one he
>> would have had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the
dynamic
>> of Ivanova involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal
"disciple"
>> would have taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and
Talia's
>> previous romantic involvement.
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
>
Hmm, let's see, Talia rolls over and notices Ivanova is not next to her
in bed. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that scene. Although jms
said they did not film a kissing scene, he did not deny they had
something more than friendship going on (he may have said more than
that but I'm too tired to look up the references).
Quit advocating drug use, you'll get the alcohol and tobacco companies
mad at you.
Nuke - 198 weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
wherentear@netscape.net (WhereNTear) wrote in
news:fe8c080f.0206191549.24e4bc15@posting.google.com:
> msarela@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1@nntp.hut.fi>...
> > As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season
5 seemed
> very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how
intense
> Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking
of
> Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have
been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I
wonder
> if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't
been
> in the planning stages.
> >
That would be a yes. Jms stated he had originally wanted intersections
in real time to be the season 4 finale. Ending on such a downer would
make a nice cliffhanger. The retaking of Earth would be 6 episodes into
season 5.
I like the idea of introducing the telepath colony mid season 4 with
its conclusion in season 5. This would allow a better and less forced
approach to the storyline.
If any maniac ever tries to novelize the Babylon 5 story, I wonder if
Warner Brothers would allow a smoother approach such as that or a
strict adherence to the TV series. Perhaps, as Babylon 5 is begging to
be made into a 5 part novel.
Nuke - 198 pound weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
"Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> Any comments on this site?
>
>
> http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
>
Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your point?"
OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to imply that
this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a tremendous
amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the choir.
It is said that certain rare artists are able to conceive their entire
work
in their heads down to the most finite detail.
Eg. allegedly Mozart could hear every single note of an entire symphony
in
his head before he ever put pen to paper. Beethoven, on the other hand,
had
to struggle and fight with every bar of his music before he felt he had
it
just right. Yet, I don't think anyone would deny the musical genius of
either of them. And MOST composers would give their eye-teeth to
compose
just 1 symphony as good as any of Mozart's 43 or Beethoven's 9.
JMS has stated MANY times for the record that ideas and plots that he
originally conceived were changed along the way - sometimes due to
unseen
pressures; sometimes for really stupid reasons; sometimes just as minor
concessions to the "money-men"; but just as often changes came about
because
jms himself realized he had made a mistake, and/or certain characters
or
story threads just weren't going anywhere, or gelling the way they
needed
to.
But, he did something almost completely unprecedented in that he
decided to
carry on a continuous dialogue with the show's fans before, during, and
after its production.
i.e. He respected his fans so much as to really listen to them and
constantly evaluate what he was doing as a result. Kind of like
stand-up
comedy: YOU may think your joke is hilarious - but if the audience
isn't
laughing, stop telling the joke.
Now, a caveat to that for the more reactionary types - jms works very
hard
not to dumb down his writing. And I would NEVER accuse him of pandering
to
the whims of the audience. On the contrary, my point is that he
respects
his audience. And he understands the difference between legitimate
artistic
integrity and self-righteous dogmatism. i.e. He is man enough to
recognize
when something just ain't working.
And THAT'S where the power of strong creative control is great. When
you
have a show written by committee or a revolving door of guest writers,
it is
Read the rest of this message... (40 more lines)
There's one question that i keep thinking about: When JMS planned the
story,
was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end of the series, or
was
it Sheridan as we could see?
David Williams <dwilliams298@attbi.com> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:
ALyP8.83644$6m5.69983@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> "Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > Any comments on this site?
> >
> >
> > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> >
>
> Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your point?"
>
> OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to imply
that
> this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a
tremendous
> amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the
choir.
>
> It is said that certain rare artists are able to conceive their
entire work
> in their heads down to the most finite detail.
> Eg. allegedly Mozart could hear every single note of an entire
symphony in
> his head before he ever put pen to paper. Beethoven, on the other
hand, had
> to struggle and fight with every bar of his music before he felt
he had it
> just right. Yet, I don't think anyone would deny the musical
genius of
> either of them. And MOST composers would give their eye-teeth to
compose
> just 1 symphony as good as any of Mozart's 43 or Beethoven's 9.
>
> JMS has stated MANY times for the record that ideas and plots that
he
> originally conceived were changed along the way - sometimes due to
unseen
> pressures; sometimes for really stupid reasons; sometimes just as
minor
> concessions to the "money-men"; but just as often changes came
about because
> jms himself realized he had made a mistake, and/or certain
characters or
> story threads just weren't going anywhere, or gelling the way they
needed
> to.
>
> But, he did something almost completely unprecedented in that he
decided to
> carry on a continuous dialogue with the show's fans before,
during, and
> after its production.
> i.e. He respected his fans so much as to really listen to them and
> constantly evaluate what he was doing as a result. Kind of like
stand-up
> comedy: YOU may think your joke is hilarious - but if the audience
isn't
Read the rest of this message... (65 more lines)
"Svetislav" <svsol@t-online.de> writes:
> There's one question that i keep thinking
about: When JMS planned
> the story, was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end
of
> the series, or was it Sheridan as we could see?
I think it's pretty clear that he originally intended Sinclair to be
the leading actor throughout the series. But things change for many
reasons and this is not a problem. JMS has given (at least) two
different reasons for the change. I'm sure they are both right in
their way.
-K
Sheridan was not planned from the absolute beginning. The idea came
along
some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either. It
turned out ok, though.
Jim
"Svetislav" <svsol@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:aen35k$rfl$06$1@news.t-online.com...
> There's one question that i keep thinking
about: When JMS planned the story,
> was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end of the
series, or was
> it Sheridan as we could see?
>
>
> David Williams <dwilliams298@attbi.com> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:
> ALyP8.83644$6m5.69983@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> >
> > "Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > > Any comments on this site?
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> > >
> >
> > Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your
point?"
> >
> > OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to
imply that
> > this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a
tremendous
> > amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the
choir.
> >
> > It is said that certain rare artists are able to conceive
their entire work
> > in their heads down to the most finite detail.
> > Eg. allegedly Mozart could hear every single note of an
entire symphony in
> > his head before he ever put pen to paper. Beethoven, on the
other hand, had
> > to struggle and fight with every bar of his music before he
felt he had it
> > just right. Yet, I don't think anyone would deny the musical
genius of
> > either of them. And MOST composers would give their eye-teeth
to compose
> > just 1 symphony as good as any of Mozart's 43 or Beethoven's
9.
> >
> > JMS has stated MANY times for the record that ideas and plots
that he
> > originally conceived were changed along the way - sometimes
due to
Read the rest of this message... (97 more lines)
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:19:18 -0400, "James Bell"
<jamesb@naxs.com> wrote:
|Sheridan was not planned from the absolute
beginning. The idea came along
|some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
|Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either.
It
|turned out ok, though. Eh, dunno about that. "War Without End"
happened more or less when it was supposed to (JMS let
slip the fact that we'd see the flip side of B^2 in season 3 before
O'Hare
left). That pretty much means Sinclair wasn't going to be around for
the
ending, so someone had to be stepping into his shoes. Or you have to
pull another character out of your ass to become Valen
and/or completely reinvent Sinclair's importance to the Minbari. This
can be
done, of course, but at that point you're completely off the map, IMO.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) hefferman@comcast.net
#include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"It's better some times if we don't get to touch our dreams." -- Harry
Chapin
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
And actually, when you view *all* of the interactions between Talia and
Susan in the context of Talia's sleeper personality, Talia is
definitely putting the moves on Susan, trying to get close to her from
almost day one. Although it's interesting... if she wanted to get close
to the top of the command structure, she could have definitely had an
easier target in Garabaldi...
-Wendy of NJ
Kerry Casey wrote:
>>"James Bell" <jamesb@naxs.com>
wrote:
>>
>>>"CaptJosh"
<captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>jbonetati@aol.com (Jan)
wrote:
>>>>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>Also, I have no idea if the story
arc that JMS had planned for
>>>>
> Ivanova
>
>>>>and Lyta for the 5th Season would
have been the same one he would
>>>>
> have
>
>>>>had if Talia Winters had still be
around. But the dynamic of
>>>>
> Ivanova
>
>>>>involved with Byron, with Talia
as his loyal "disciple" would have
>>>>taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
previous
>>>>romantic involvement.
>>>>
>>>Ok, what are you smoking and why
aren't you sharing? There was no
>>>romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely
friends.
>>>
>>You're joking, right? When were they
friends? They fought each other
>>
> all
>
>>the time and then had a sleepover.
>>
>>
>>
> > The first time through, I never saw the
"tension" between Talia and
> Susan as anything other than friends. It's not until I read the
> newsgroup that I realised that there was an understated attraction
> between them. However, when showing B5 to a cousin who'd never
seen it
> and knew nothing of it, after the first few scenes between Susan
and
> Talia, she said "Hah, lesbian love interest!"
> > > > Kerry
> > --
> > Kerry Casey
> kcasey@bom.gov.au
> Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
> > > >
In article <3D131D18.9020405@hotmail.com>, voxwoman@hotmail.com
says...
> And actually, when you view *all* of the
interactions between Talia and > Susan in the context of Talia's
sleeper personality, Talia is definitely > putting the moves on
Susan, trying to get close to her from almost day > one. Although
it's interesting... if she wanted to get close to the top > of the
command structure, she could have definitely had an easier target >
in Garabaldi...
Garibaldi has a tendency to communicate less with the women in his life
than with his enemies.
-- Adam
Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Nova Bomb is no longer your friend.
No. Don't think so because of Garabaldi in "Gropos" turning down
Dodger.
Still think that Lise would have, or memory of her, would not let him.
But
then like most men it doesn't stop him from looking.
"Voxwoman" <voxwoman@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D131D18.9020405@hotmail.com...
> And actually, when you view *all* of the
interactions between Talia and
> Susan in the context of Talia's sleeper personality, Talia is
definitely
> putting the moves on Susan, trying to get close to her from almost
day
> one. Although it's interesting... if she wanted to get close to
the top
> of the command structure, she could have definitely had an easier
target
> in Garabaldi...
> -Wendy of NJ
>
CaptJosh wrote:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
>
>>jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
>>
> <snip>
>
>>Also, I have no idea if the story arc
that JMS had planned for Ivanova
>>and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he
would have
>>had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of
Ivanova
>>involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would
have
>>taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
previous
>>romantic involvement.
>>
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
>
go watch the eps again... there was a kiss that wasn't onscreen, and
Talia's touching the empty spot in the bed next to her... It's the
episode where Lyta exposes Talia's alternate personality and she's off
the show... Susan and Talia were more than friends.
-Wendy of NJ
>
Voxwoman wrote:
> go watch the eps again... there was a kiss
that wasn't onscreen,
That, I'm afraid, is an urban myth. It's just bad shot continuity.
But JMS and both the actresses have said quite plainly that there
was an affair between the characters.
-- John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood.html
[posted and mailed]
"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
>> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in
message
>> news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for
>> Ivanova and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same
one he
>> would have had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the
dynamic
>> of Ivanova involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal
"disciple"
>> would have taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and
Talia's
>> previous romantic involvement.
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
>
Hmm, let's see, Talia rolls over and notices Ivanova is not next to her
in bed. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that scene. Although jms
said they did not film a kissing scene, he did not deny they had
something more than friendship going on (he may have said more than
that but I'm too tired to look up the references).
Quit advocating drug use, you'll get the alcohol and tobacco companies
mad at you.
Nuke - 198 weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
[posted and mailed]
wherentear@netscape.net (WhereNTear) wrote in
news:fe8c080f.0206191549.24e4bc15@posting.google.com:
> msarela@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1@nntp.hut.fi>...
> > As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season
5 seemed
> very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how
intense
> Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking
of
> Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have
been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I
wonder
> if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't
been
> in the planning stages.
> >
That would be a yes. Jms stated he had originally wanted intersections
in real time to be the season 4 finale. Ending on such a downer would
make a nice cliffhanger. The retaking of Earth would be 6 episodes into
season 5.
I like the idea of introducing the telepath colony mid season 4 with
its conclusion in season 5. This would allow a better and less forced
approach to the storyline.
If any maniac ever tries to novelize the Babylon 5 story, I wonder if
Warner Brothers would allow a smoother approach such as that or a
strict adherence to the TV series. Perhaps, as Babylon 5 is begging to
be made into a 5 part novel.
Nuke - 198 pound weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
[posted and mailed]
"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
>> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in
message
>> news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for
>> Ivanova and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same
one he
>> would have had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the
dynamic
>> of Ivanova involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal
"disciple"
>> would have taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and
Talia's
>> previous romantic involvement.
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
>
Hmm, let's see, Talia rolls over and notices Ivanova is not next to her
in bed. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that scene. Although jms
said they did not film a kissing scene, he did not deny they had
something more than friendship going on (he may have said more than
that but I'm too tired to look up the references).
Quit advocating drug use, you'll get the alcohol and tobacco companies
mad at you.
Nuke - 198 weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
[posted and mailed]
wherentear@netscape.net (WhereNTear) wrote in
news:fe8c080f.0206191549.24e4bc15@posting.google.com:
> msarela@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1@nntp.hut.fi>...
> > As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season
5 seemed
> very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how
intense
> Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking
of
> Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have
been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I
wonder
> if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't
been
> in the planning stages.
> >
That would be a yes. Jms stated he had originally wanted intersections
in real time to be the season 4 finale. Ending on such a downer would
make a nice cliffhanger. The retaking of Earth would be 6 episodes into
season 5.
I like the idea of introducing the telepath colony mid season 4 with
its conclusion in season 5. This would allow a better and less forced
approach to the storyline.
If any maniac ever tries to novelize the Babylon 5 story, I wonder if
Warner Brothers would allow a smoother approach such as that or a
strict adherence to the TV series. Perhaps, as Babylon 5 is begging to
be made into a 5 part novel.
Nuke - 198 pound weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
From: James Bell (jamesb@naxs.com)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-19 17:53:42 PST
"Dennis Francis Heffernan" <hefferman@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:s700huo7jpfadfnh8pp1octhaft2gcbr7j@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:19:18 -0400, "James Bell" <jamesb@naxs.com> wrote:
>
> |Sheridan was not planned from the absolute beginning. The idea came along
> |some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
> |Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either. It
> |turned out ok, though.
>
> Eh, dunno about that.
Well I think it turned out ok. YMMV.
> "War Without End" happened more or less when it was supposed to (JMS let
> slip the fact that we'd see the flip side of B^2 in season 3 before O'Hare
> left). That pretty much means Sinclair wasn't going to be around for the
> ending, so someone had to be stepping into his shoes.
>
> Or you have to pull another character out of your ass to become Valen
> and/or completely reinvent Sinclair's importance to the Minbari. This can be
> done, of course, but at that point you're completely off the map, IMO.
We don't know that War Without End happened the *way* it was supposed to,
though. It may have been written differently. (I can think of ways to pull
off WWE and keep Sinclair in the present. I can also think of ways to do
Season 4 and 5 without Sinclair or Sheridan and without introducing a new
character.) It isn't as if WWE was already written during season one. When
Sinclair left and Sheridan came in, the way the arc was to be presented
changed radically. I am sure that JMS got to tell his story but *the way*
the story got told was significantly different from the original plan. This
isn't a bad thing. Nevertheless it is what happened.
You don't have to agree. It's ok to be wrong. :)
Jim
Oh i see, thanks for letting me know guys
James Bell <jamesb@naxs.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
aenj21$qht$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> Sheridan was not planned from the absolute beginning. The idea came along
> some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
> Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either. It
> turned out ok, though.
>
> Jim
>
> "Svetislav" <svsol@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:aen35k$rfl$06$1@news.t-online.com...
> > There's one question that i keep thinking about: When JMS planned the story,
> > was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end of the series, or was
> > it Sheridan as we could see?
> >
> >
> > David Williams <dwilliams298@attbi.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
> > ALyP8.83644$6m5.69983@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> > >
> > > "Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > > > Any comments on this site?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your point?"
> > >
> > > OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to imply that
> > > this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a tremendous
> > > amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the choir.
> > >
> > > It is said that certain rare artists are able to conceive their entire work
> > > in their heads down to the most finite detail.
> > > Eg. allegedly Mozart could hear every single note of an entire symphony in
> > > his head before he ever put pen to paper. Beethoven, on the other hand, had
Read the rest of this message... (123 more lines)
Svetislav wrote:
>
> Oh i see, thanks for letting me know guys
We all have our theories, some with more evidence backing them than
others. But the only one who knows for sure is jms, and he isn't talking.
In article <aen35k$rfl$06$1@news.t-online.com>,
Svetislav <svsol@t-online.de> wrote:
>There's one question that i keep thinking about: When JMS planned
>the story, was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end
>of the series, or was it Sheridan as we could see?
I think it must have been Sinclair originally. I think
that was the original reason that Sinclair taking B4 back
looked older, and that scar on his cheek would have been
from when he goaded Kosh into taking action against the
Shadows.
I think. Only JMS knows, and he isn't talking.
I really missed Sinclair, all through the rest of the
series. Sheridan was good, but something about Sinclair
really clicked with me, in a way that Sheridan never did.
But it was quite a ride for 5 years.
--
Have you noticed that, when we were young, we were told | Mike Van Pelt
that "everybody else is doing it" was a really stupid | mvp@calweb.com
reason to do something, but now it's the standard reason | KE6BVH
for picking a particular software package? -- Barry Gehm
>
> I really missed Sinclair, all through the rest of the
> series. Sheridan was good, but something about Sinclair
> really clicked with me, in a way that Sheridan never did.
>
> But it was quite a ride for 5 years.
>
Agreeing about Sinclair. Actually, I saw them in the "wrong" order, season
2-3 first, then missed part of four and all of five, then saw them all
through in sequence. I liked Sinclair better even *after* seeing Sheridan
first.
But--I don't think JMS